S1, E4: Should We or Shouldn't We?

Should worship teams sing songs from churches or artists whose theology differs from ours? What if the songwriter has been involved in a public scandal or legal trouble?

In Episode 4 of Beyond the Bridge, Josh and Darren dive into one of worship ministry's most debated topics. They discuss how to evaluate the songs we sing, separate the message from the messenger, and make wise, biblical decisions for our congregations.

It's a thoughtful conversation on conviction, discernment, and leading worship with integrity.

Join us on Facebook by clicking here: Beyond the Bridge

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:05

Songs can have a verse, a chorus, and a bridge. But worship does not end there. This is Beyond the Bridge. I'm Josh. And I'm Darren. Each episode we step into the real joys and challenges of leading worship teams and choirs.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Exploring the moments, the people, and the songs that shape the heart of worship. Whether you're on the platform, in rehearsal, or behind the scenes, this is the place where your heart, your team, and your ministry come alive to go.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

Beyond the bridge and into the heart behind the music. Well, welcome to episode four of the Beyond the Bridge podcast. I'm Josh Erzman here with Darren White. Darren, how are you? Good evening. I'm fine. How about you? I'm doing great, doing great. So we're gonna launch into a conversation today that may be a little controversial. This might be the first time that we might get some feathers ruffled by the Beyond the Bridge podcast, but we're gonna discuss the topic of should we or shouldn't we? Right? So let me throw some titles of some songs at you. And I want you to to let me know. He's rubbing his hands together. I want you to tell me what these songs have in common. This is the CCLI Top 100 list, uh, most recent one that I could find. Goodness of God, Holy Forever, Gratitude, King of Kings, Praise, Trust in God, uh, let's see if I can find some more here. Uh what a beautiful name. I thank God. What do you think those songs all have in common? Those are all in the top, you know, 10 to 15 on the CCLI charts.

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Well, I was going to look at that list and I didn't. Okay. So it's not like I'm cheating or we're cheating together and you're setting me up to give a this wonderful.

SPEAKER_00 2:09

We actually do very little prep work on this podcast as far as coordinating together. We kind of we figure out a topic and we kind of do our own thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

So I'm going to step out on a limb and think I know what you're where you're going with this by adding yet another song. Okay. Ain't no grave. Yep. They're all written and and sung by performed no, I hate the word performed. I didn't say that. Maybe in this case they are performed by groups, worship teams, churches, whatever you want to say, such as Bethel, Hillsong, Elevation Worship. Some might even say Jesus culture. All groups like that.

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Ding ding ding. You have landed the nail. No, landed the nail on the hit the nail. Hit the nail on the There it is. Hit the nail on the head.

SPEAKER_01 2:59

So see, we we don't do very much really seriously prepped together.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

So these are all uh kind of from that Bethel Elevation Hillsong uh family, and these are all churches ministries that from a Southern Baptist, which both of our churches are, where again, if you're just joining us, we're worship leaders at two Southern Baptist churches in the same fairly relatively small town uh in southwest Missouri. And these are ministries that kind of traditional Southern Baptist theology would not necessarily line up with the statements of faith or the theological practices, at least 100% of these churches' ministries. And so there is kind of an ongoing controversy in worship ministry as a whole as far as should we use these songs or not? That's where we get the title, should we or shouldn't we? And so we're gonna kind of talk through that issue just a little bit and get just a sense of kind of where Darren's coming from, where I'm coming from, and then we may even bring in some big guns, some of the the famous pastors and preachers from hither and yon times that may speak to this issue as well. So, Darren, kind of give me maybe your understanding before we start maybe giving our opinions. Let's what is your understanding of the reasons that people give for not using songs by Bethel, Elevation, Hillsong, and the like?

SPEAKER_01 4:38

Well, the number one reason that I've seen that I've heard myself is they are not theologically accurate. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

The the ministries. Not necessarily the songs.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

All kinds of controversy may go on in some of these places. I made a note here about Hillsong, and it's it's all out there. Right. So it's not like I'm giving any big top secret information here. The one and only known I made about Hillsong, plagued with charges of sexual abuse. I just stopped there. Sure. That's enough. Bethel. I really like Bethel music. Sure. I think they have nice songs, catchy tunes. We called it a hook one time in a in an episode. But some of their lyrics, not to not to even mention the church itself, but some of their lyrics I don't think are biblically correct. I mentioned the title earlier, Ain't No Grave. Easter's coming up. Right. This song may be played. Yep. In many, many churches across the country. There's one line in it. The the whole phrase, the whole verse, Oh, there was a battle, a war between death and life, and there on a tree the Lamb of God was crucified. Great. Not great that the Lamb of God was crucified, but well it was for us. But the lyric checks lyric is what you're saying. It goes on to say, and he went on down to hell, he took back every key. I have issues with that that sentence, that that phrase. He rose up as a lion and he set all captives free. Now while I was looking into this, Bill Johnson is the lead pastor, the head, the whatever they call it, of Bethel Church. He teaches that Jesus had to go to hell and be tortured for three days in order to be born again. That is not theologically cohesive and accurate with what I believe and what I believe our church believes. So songs like that, yes, I've got issue with. Are they cool songs? Absolutely. Cool drum part, cool guitar, good vocals, all that different stuff. Now take some of these songs that the lyrics are okay, the lyrics are biblical, but what's the background behind them? Right. What's the theol what's the belief of that church and their the theology they teach?

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Well, and so and I think if you go back and listen to episode two, where we talk about criteria for choosing congregational songs, the first test that we gave, right? You know, first standard was is it scripturally accurate? It does this song line up with the Bible, does it represent our theology? Right?

SPEAKER_01 7:29

So And since then I've used your recommendation of using the Berean test. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

That's actually I'm I'm actually on there right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

And I here's what I expected. Put a song title in, it comes up. Okay. Look at the review of it, and there's going to be two or three, maybe, Bible verses that says that this song reflects these Bible verses. Okay, good. No, not at all. What I found was every single line and sentence in the phrase in the song, there's a Bible verse for if it fits. Yep. I was amazed at how many Bible verses that one song could have connected to it.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Absolutely. So we're drawing a distinction in this episode between the lyrics of a specific song. Let's let's assume that the lyrics are fine, right? So we already know that if the lyrics don't pass biblical muster, we we shouldn't be using the song. There's hundreds of thousands of other good songs. So the issue becomes let's say the lyrics are completely fine, completely in line with scripture, but the ministry, the church itself, that that or the source, it may not necessarily even be a church, the source of the song is not uh, you know, has theology or has you know spiritual practices that we do not subscribe to.

SPEAKER_01 8:56

Yeah, because the way I see that is anybody could write a song that's biblically accurate. Right. Doesn't mean they're a Christian, a good Christian, if you want to throw that phrase out. Doesn't mean any of that. Are the lyrics good? Right. So with that, I would look at it as are the lyrics biblically accurate? They could be, but yet they come from one of these churches that we don't we don't relate to, we don't subscribe to, we don't see eye to eye with their theology and our theology.

SPEAKER_00 9:32

So someone might use that as a as an objection, right? They would say, you know, this this is pointing to a particular ministry. Like if you, you know, play a new song, right? Let's say you play uh I don't know, I know a name, right? And someone says, Hey, I really like that song, and they come home, they Google it, look it up on YouTube, and it says, Oh, you know, elevation worship. Oh, what who's who's that? What uh what uh I wonder if they've got other songs, or if they look it up on Spotify, and now you've got a whole list of songs by elevation that you start listening to, and you say, I wonder what that that church or that ministry is like.

SPEAKER_01 10:15

I'm gonna look up more about them, and now we've pointed someone to a church or ministry that you know And I was going to say for a new Christian or a non-Christian, or maybe even somebody that is a Christian but not as advanced in their their walk with Christ, maybe a an um a baby Christian. Sure. You know, I guess that's the same as new, but or maybe someone that's just not as strong in their faith as some others are. That could really set them down a path that's not very good. Yeah. They keep keep diving, keep digging, they keep going down that rabbit hole that is the internet, and they find these things, oh, I like that. But there's something just a little twisted about it. So again, do we do these songs that maybe the lyrics are fine, but we know behind them things may not be so fine. Sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

So what are some other objections that people give to to using these songs besides just you know lyrics or besides just in general pointing people to a particular ministry?

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Well, you mentioned the CCLI.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Which we might explain what that is. I I don't want to assume that all of our listeners know CCLI, Christian Copyright Licensing International, and they're it they are not the only group that does this, but they are by far the I would say the industry leader. Right. Um but basically, you know, churches secure a license from CCLI, and that enables us to project lyrics, to you know, print lyrics. If you use like a printed bulletin or something, you put lyrics in there instead of putting them on a screen. If you want to live stream, you know, music, all of that, you know, I I think there's a misunderstanding. Maybe we'll do an episode on copyright law. I think we should. But unless your church has permission from the copyright holder for of a song, you are not allowed even to project the lyrics of the song up onto a screen. That is prohibited unless you have a CCLI license. And and as part of that, as part of having that license, we have to report every once in a while. I think it's like for a six-month period every three years or something. Churches are required to report here are all the songs that we used during that six-month period. And CCLI, they do all the administrative stuff with all the copyright holders, and then they will send royalties to these churches and ministries and songwriters of where these songs are coming from, based on the churches that are reporting, hey, we're using these particular songs.

SPEAKER_01 12:53

Some of you may have heard of ASCAP, American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers. Uh, there's BMI, CSAC. I don't even know if CSAC's still around.

SPEAKER_00 13:03

I think it is. I'm pretty sure CSAC is.

SPEAKER_01 13:08

All the same type of of companies that that deal with the music industry. So that's one of the things that one of the arguments that could be you should not play them. Even if the lyrics are fine, if they come from that church, one of those churches, you shouldn't do it because you're you're supporting them financially as a result of the CCLI.

SPEAKER_00 13:30

Yeah, and direct you're indirectly funding those ministries. And honestly, I I'll just say, cards on the table, I think of all of the arguments that are made for using or not using songs from a questionable source, I would say that's probably the strongest argument, in my opinion, is this this idea of financially supporting. I agree. So, all right, let's shift gears for a second. We've talked about the reasons why we wouldn't, and the reasons that people give for why we wouldn't want to use or shouldn't use songs from these particular ministries. Let's let's shift gears a little bit and talk about why we maybe should consider doing that. So, Darren, kick us off. I've got I've got some thoughts as well, but I'm gonna let you let you chime in first.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

Well, what comes to my mind, something that's already been mentioned, could be a positive and a negative. They've got catchy music, catchy lyrics. Maybe some of them, I'd say some of the slower tempo songs emotional. All those things that people turn to music for, no matter what genre of music it is, I think that could be a positive and negative. Could be a negative that somebody goes, Oh wow, that's a catchy tune. I liked it, I'm gonna search into them a little bit more.

SPEAKER_00 14:48

Or they're willing to ignore, you know, right, unbiblical lyrics or whatever, just because it's a catchy tune. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:55

But I also think that could be a positive. It catches people's attention. Ooh, I really like the guitar part, or then who says that, right? It's it's always I like the drum part. Uh just I would say I like the piano riffs but joking. Uh keyboards. Ah. Just joking. But maybe people say I like that, and I'm going to put that in my playlist to drive back and forth to work every day. Yeah. And that becomes part of their personal worship that we talked about in the last episode. Yeah. So I can kind of see how it could be good and bad both, as far as the song and catchy stuff and all that. And then of course you've got the idea that maybe the lyrics are fine, maybe they are biblical, and it would be okay to to sing those during a worship service on Sunday morning, or during that personal worship driving back and forth to work, just because the background of that, whatever church it may be, the problems they're having, the struggles they're going through, the beliefs that they carry that we don't, maybe the lyrics are are still okay. Yeah. So I I don't see that there's anything wrong with that aspect of it. Remove the financial. Remove the fact that that we pay that license and that some of that money's going to this church.

SPEAKER_00 16:17

And I and I am gonna push back on the even though I just argued for the financial thing a few minutes ago, I'm gonna push back on that, right? Because my my ultimate opinion on this issue is that if the lyrics are biblical, right, if it meets all those other criteria that we talked about for choosing good congregational songs, I'm gonna probably use the song.

SPEAKER_01 16:38

I will too.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Um, but I'm gonna push back on the financial side of saying, well, if you use that song, you're you know indirectly sending money through CCLI.

SPEAKER_01 16:46

You just don't report it. Well, well, no, no, don't do that. Again, again, again, jokes.

SPEAKER_00 16:51

But uh, you know, I'm gonna push back on that to say, where does where does the line stop, right? Right. Um, you know, does your church shop at stores that you know have you know views that you don't agree with that, you know, they're maybe those companies are are funding or or you know sponsoring things that maybe don't line up with um you know our beliefs. I I'm gonna just point back to, you know, I'm thankful we've moved past this, but I'm gonna point back to the 90s when the Southern Baptist Convention, you know, boycotted Disney World for you know some various various things. But you know, where where does that line stop? At some point, the the the money is going to flow to something or someone that does not line up with your theology. It may be a particular church or ministry that's writing these songs, it may be, you know, the place where your church buys its its groceries for its Wednesday night meal, it might be, you know, whatever. Your church, the money's gonna funnel there somewhere at some point. So I don't know that the financial impact is is that great. But to what you were saying about the lyrics, uh, I'm gonna quote one of the best perspectives that I've gotten on this issue is from Mike Harland, who used to be the director of Life Way Worship. And in a blog post that he wrote a few years ago, he said this, and and he was giving the opinion, basically what I just said, which is that he would go ahead and sing the song, even if it was from one of these ministries. And he said, Here's why. The first point he gives is all truth is God's truth. And here's the the follow-up quote: If a song says something that is biblically true, it is not because the writer received some kind of revelation of truth that is now captured in a song. It is because the truth of the song was settled by God Himself and was true before the song was written and will be true after it is forgotten. Truth is eternal, and the songs we sing in worship should bear the markers of his truth. The truth they express should never be attributed to a human author as if the writer came up with it. If a song is true, then God is the one who made it true.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Can't argue that.

SPEAKER_00 19:18

Isn't that good stuff? So, you know, this idea of if we're going back to last episode, if worship is a response to, you know, God's revelation, God's glory, who God is and what he's done, those things are settled facts, right? God's character is a settled fact. You know, we might play around with the language of how we describe God's character and and you know, make it rhyme and and put it in, you know, certain configurations, but the truth of who God is and what he's done is is settled fact. So I, you know, again, I go to if the lyrics are good, then I'm probably gonna use it.

SPEAKER_01 19:56

Do you think they had this issue back in the 19th century? That's a softball for you there, Josh. I just threw you a softball.

SPEAKER_00 20:04

I I sure do. I sure do. And and we're we're kind of looking at each other and smiling a little bit. Uh, you know, we we don't do a ton of together prep work uh for these podcast episodes.

SPEAKER_01 20:16

Usually a text message or two.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Exactly. Just say, hey, what topic do you want to discuss? And then we kind of do our own individual prep work. But before we started recording, we realized that both of us, as part of the research for this episode, stumbled on the same quote. And so I'm going to defer to you as my as my senior um to uh to share share that quote that we both found that I think speaks profoundly to this this idea.

SPEAKER_01 20:41

How about we do this? I give the history of how it came to this, and then you give the quote. I love it. Let's do it. Charles Spurgeon, sick 19th century. He wrote about this very same topic. No, it did not include Bethel, it did not include Hillsong. It did not even include Brandon Lake, right, believe it or not. But he did write about this in the 19th century. He was assembling a hymnal for his congregation at the Metropolitan Tabernacle. They were using two hymnals at the time. He wanted to take hymns from each one, put into a one book, that they used just that one book, and of course he wanted the best hymns. He wanted the ones that were the most biblically correct, had the best theology to them. So he spent a lot of time with this.

SPEAKER_00 21:33

Which I I just want to take a side note here and say, how cool is that that he was, you know, before the the full time quote unquote full time worship leader idea existed, that he was basically cultivating a a body of songs for his church to sing, where you know he, as the pastor, was saying, Well, let's take from this source and this source and this source, and let's gather up all of the Best stuff that we can find, and that's what we're going to put in the mouths of our people. I just think it's very cool.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Here it is, Charles Spurgeon, highly respected. And because of that, I I also think he probably played the drums, but uh more on that later. Um, so he he combined these two hymnals into one, which he called our own hymn book.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Love that.

SPEAKER_01 22:21

And part of the writing that he did on this subject is, and I'll let you take that from here.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

All right, here's the quote, and I believe if I'm not mistaken, I think this comes from the preface of the of the hymnal. He says this. So think of this in context of what we're discussing. Should we or should we not use hymns or songs from questionable sources? He says, the areas of our research, sorry, the area, singular, the area of our research has been as wide as the bounds of existing religious literature, American and British, Protestant and Romish, Catholic, right, ancient and modern. Whatever may be thought of our taste, we have used it without prejudice. And a good hymn has not been rejected because of the character of its author or the heresies of the church in whose hymnal it first occurred. So long as the language and the spirit commended the hymn to our heart, we included it, and believe that we have enriched our collection thereby.

SPEAKER_01 23:27

I had that section in bold type. I love that. And the way you read it to me made it sound like you had it in bold type as well.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Well, I didn't, but but you know, anyway. Sorry, I'm not that's right. The range of subjects is very extensive, comprising not only direct praise, but doctrine, experience, and exhortation, thus enabling the saints, according to apostolical command, to edify one another in their spiritual songs. And I'm gonna go back to this is me talking now. I'm gonna go back to what I've said in past episode of Colossians 3.16, Ephesians 5.19, teaching and admonishing one another through psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, making melody in our hearts to the Lord, right? So it's this idea of he, you know, he says there is direct praise in here, right? But there's also doctrine, experience, and exhortation. And so it has not only a worship function, but also a teaching, a discipleship function. And I and I just love that. But yeah, the the bolded language that that Darren would abolden, so did I. So long as the language and spirit commended the hymn to our heart, we included it and believed that we have enriched our collection thereby. Comment comment on that some.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

I actually did the the sentence before that.

SPEAKER_00 24:44

Sorry, the sentence before.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

A good hymn has not been rejected because of the character of its author.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Or the heresies of the church in whose hymnal it first occurred. Now, the pushback to this, again, uh you know, we keep going back and forth. I I I've stated my opinion. I think you agree with my opinion. I think we're both making the case that Spurgeon agrees with us. I could see the pushback to though to that, though, right? Every good attorney knows that you've got to be able to argue all sides of the issue.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

And what were you battling in your own self prior to accepting the call to worship?

SPEAKER_00 25:17

Worship pleading, I was gonna be an attorney. There you go. So there you go. Before that, I was gonna be a meteorologist, but we're not gonna go into weather on this podcast. Sorry. The pushback to this idea is okay, yeah, Josh, that's true. Charles Spurgeon said this that we shouldn't reject these hymns because of the character of the author of the heresies of the church and whose hymn will it first occurred. The pushback is hey Darren, this isn't 2026. Or sorry, this is 2026. This is not the Metropolitan Tabernacle in the 1800s. And nobody had Google back then. Nobody had the ability to, you know, pull out their phone out of their pocket and suddenly or use Chat GPT, and suddenly they have a detailed, you know, theological analysis of the church and the ministry from where these songs came from. They they might have seen somebody's name or something printed at the bottom of the page of the hymnal, but they didn't know what that meant. They they weren't gonna take the time to look at that. Today it's I like that song, I'm gonna go look it up online, find other songs like it, I'm gonna look up the church, I'm gonna look up their statement of faith. So, what would your response be to that idea of it is so easy now to investigate the source of a song? Does that change the analysis at all?

SPEAKER_01 26:39

I see the argument, but I'll argue back if we're using that strong word of argue.

SPEAKER_00 26:45

Debate. Debate back.

SPEAKER_01 26:47

Yes, they didn't have the internet, they didn't have Google, they didn't have Chat GPT. But I think back in those days, and I don't I don't know, I wasn't there, obviously, they knew. They knew what happened in communities around them. They knew what happened across the country, whatever country they were in.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Whether they were probably better schooled in history than we were, too.

SPEAKER_01 27:07

Whether it be the guy on horseback, whatever the case was, but word got around. And word was more important, I think, back then, even in our even in our own country. Take the Revolutionary War and I'll not get too big into history, but I could, but I won't. Word traveled, whether it be somebody in Philadelphia or somebody in the Ohio territory far out west, that word traveled. Not as fast as the internet, obviously, but it did travel in a sense, just like the internet, just not as fast. So I don't know. I I think that they knew. Look at the spread of the gospel. Yeah, it didn't travel around because of the internet.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Right. Well, and obviously, for Spurgeon to have written that, I believe that there was some sort of controversy. Yes, right? That that he felt the need to explain. Hey, we've gone ahead and included these songs despite the people who wrote them and despite whatever, you know, darkness lies w therein'. Um, that he felt the need to clarify. Hey, if the lyrics were good and the spirit of the song was good, we went ahead and included it. And we think that it's actually enriched our hymnal and made it better because we included these these diverse songs.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

A good hymn has not been rejected because of the character of its author. Yeah. He's talking about certain people. Absolutely. He didn't name them.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 28:41

We're talking about certain people or groups, churches. Again, we've already mentioned all the big names. Right. I think he knew. I think they knew as a church. I think their conversation, their debate was just as passionate back then as it is now. Yeah. We just have a different means to spread that debate. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

Well, so I think for me, the it comes down to I'm gonna I'm gonna make kind of two, I don't know where we are at on time, but I'm gonna make two kind of concluding thoughts. So the first one, and and I'm really I'm gonna fess up to this, I'm I'm drawing some inspiration here again from Mike Harland. Because uh again, when I read his his article several years ago, his blog post, it really has kind of uh, you know, I already believed what I believed about this issue, but his blog post kind of gave voice to it. And it's called, uh, if you want to Google it and look at it, it's called Can We Sing Their Songs, and he has their in quotation marks. But one of the other points that he makes is that we can focus so much on what the writer of the song intended, and we can lose sight of what do I mean as I sing it? Right? So again, going back to that, if the lyrics are fine, and we're just talking about the source, can uh if if all truth is God's truth, right? Can the way or the the meaning that I put behind the song when I'm singing it in corporate worship or personal worship, can can that serve as a means by which we we kind of bypass the issue and say, you know, I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna go way hermeneutically wrong here for a second, but you know, that idea in Genesis of what what um Pharaoh intended for evil, God intended for good, right? So can can the song be redeemed uh if the lyrics are faithful by by what I mean when I sing it or when I play it. And then kind of the other kind of concluding thought that he has is the idea of don't die on this hill. If you're a worship leader and it's gonna cause dissension and division within your church for you to use a particular song or minister or songs from a particular ministry, I would probably lean toward not doing that. Sure. Now, can I just be completely transparent? Will you forgive me for being transparent?

SPEAKER_01 31:13

Oh, I don't know. Do we want to be transparent? Sure. I think it should be. Go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 31:17

You know, there's always gonna be one cranky guy or gal, right? There's always gonna I I know in a Baptist church, there's always gonna be at least one, usually, you know, 10 or 12, but there's always gonna be, you know, there's always gonna be that one person that it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

Are you saying this because of the shirt I have on?

SPEAKER_00 31:37

I am not. Uh oh, his shirt says Grumpy Old Drummer Club.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

That uh that's the most important part.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Get off my drums. Yeah, that's right. Love it. But there's there's always gonna be some voice. But I'm saying if there's a considerable body of people within your church, a considerable group of people that are, you know, raising concern with the use of these kinds of songs. That's something that leadership needs to evaluate, right? If it's one person kind of lobbing grenades from from far away, I don't know that I would worry about that person. I I do think it does it warrants a conversation with your pastor as a worship leader. I do think that it warrants, you know, discussion among church leadership of, you know, this issue has come up. Here's what my position is, instead of just ignoring it and saying, well, you know, we're just gonna sing whatever songs I want because I'm the worship leader and you know, that's my decision. Well, it's it's not. The pastor's actually the worship leader. Uh, but all that to say, don't die on this hill. This is not an issue, you know, using Bethel songs or hill song or elevation or whatever, that is not worth causing disunity in the body. And so if that's if that's going to be what happens, then I would lean toward not using those songs. Otherwise, I I tend to say if they are biblically faithful, I would use them. What say you? I agree on that. So any final thoughts before we uh close up shop on episode four.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

So at the beginning of the last episode, episode three, what is worship? I'm I made a comment that I'd talk to my pastor. I wanted to get his opinion of what it is. You mentioned your pastor, and that we might bring in, I think you called them the big guns. Well, we haven't done that yet. Nope. But in the future, I think we both would like to. I think it would be a blast to have them at the same time. I don't know if we can pull that off with schedules. With schedules and equipment and all that. Here's what I would like to see, and you may agree, you may not agree, that's fine. Have them come in for an episode and try to get ourselves. Shotgun effect.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Uh like rapid fire questions.

SPEAKER_01 33:53

Rapid fire questions of all these different topics. Yeah. What is worship? Even even go back before that. How do you pick a set list? Does the pastor have any say in the set list? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

Well, I mean, I think the answer to that should be yes, but you know, what what input yeah, what input do you want in the set list?

SPEAKER_01 34:14

Input's a better word than the way I said it, Pastor Mike. I didn't mean. Do you have any say in it?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

You're getting yourself in all kinds of trouble today. I am. Um with your wife last episode. It was you.

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Yeah, well, I I did stir my wife into that one. But you but ha have rapid fire questions about all these topics. Creating the set list. What is worship? Should we or shouldn't we use songs from some of these groups we discussed? And by the time we get this done, what other topics are going to come up? Yep. So I'd I think that would be fun with the pastors is to to rapid fire. What's your thoughts on this?

SPEAKER_00 34:50

Yeah, so we may hold we may hold off for a little while. To get a few under and yeah, let them let them kind of think through uh some of the topics and let us think through some of the topics that we want to ask them about, um, and then do a that might be how we end quote unquote season one of our of our podcast is inviting our pastors to join us.

SPEAKER_01 35:10

You've already titled that podcast. What is that? The big guns. Okay, yes. I don't know if they'll appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 35:17

Probably not, but that's that's all right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 35:19

So with this topic, should we or shouldn't we?

SPEAKER_00 35:23

Yeah. I would say we should with caveats um of of biblical faithfulness of lyrics. Um, but again, I'm gonna go back with Mike Harlan and say uh don't die on the hill. I I did also find another uh sentence uh that he had written that I really thought was a good way to end. He said, God will not hold us responsible for what they, meaning these churches' ministries, God will not hold us responsible for what they believe and teach. There you go. But he will hold us responsible for what we believe and teach when we sing the songs. So I think that's that's kind of the the summary statement.

SPEAKER_01 36:03

And you said end with that.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

Sorry.

SPEAKER_01 36:05

I I I want to throw one more thing one more thing. I've had the privilege of being a driver for different concerts that come to this part of the state. From Winter Jam to Light the Way, and then just other individual concerts. And with that has come the opportunity to meet some of the big names. The church has been gracious enough to let me drive the van so I can haul band and crew around to wherever they need to go, restaurants, hotels, whatever. Through that, I have had for King and Country, and I'm not saying this to to a look at me. I'm making a point here. For King and Country, Anne Wilson and her parents. I enjoyed talking with her parents as much as I did Anne Wilson, but we're about the same age. The guy on American Idol, Colton. Dixon? Dixon. Yeah. His band, uh, KB. Some big names in the Christian music world. And at first I was nervous. I was thinking, are they going to be what I hope they are? Or are they going to be jerks? Yeah. Is what was in my mind. And I can tell you this, every one of them I felt was very genuine. I didn't get anything different from them. So that just leads me, that points me to their music even more than what I was before. I don't know if that kind of ties in with some of this topic. But as people, I didn't meet a single one of them that I wouldn't want to meet again.

SPEAKER_00 37:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:39

Just amazing people. Yeah. They'll talk scripture with you.

SPEAKER_00 37:42

Absolutely. Well, and I think I think that points to a a broader point, which we didn't really get to. If you look at the the broad hymnity of of the church, right? There are all kinds of songs in our hymnals. There's all kinds of uh worship songs that are written by well-meaning people that just don't necessarily line up with us on everything theologically 100% of the time. If you took the the the most recent Baptist hymnal and you cleared out all of the songs by people who have, you know, some questionable theological beliefs, the people, not the lyrics, but the people, I would argue that there's some songs in the Baptist Hymnal that have some questionable lyrics. But um if you take the people, we're not gonna have that many songs left in our in our repertoire. You know, King David, obviously fantastic songwriter. We have a record of all of his songs, you know, to this day, thousands of years later, and yet he was a flawed human being, right? He had his own set of issues. So uh, you know, I think that the the bottom line is, you know, don't necessarily throw the baby out with the bathwater. You know, recognize that people are flawed, and yet God still uses them to speak his truth in in ways that maybe they weren't intending, maybe they were intending, but what matters is what Mike Carlin says. How do we intend the song to be used? And what are we trying to teach and what are we trying to emphasize whenever we sing these songs in corporate worship?

SPEAKER_01 39:19

That's right. And let's end that time. Let's end, let's end with that. That this time, I kind of took a trip out to left field.

SPEAKER_00 39:25

That's that's all right. All right. We'll see you next time on Beyond the Bridge. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_00 39:37

Thanks for joining us for this episode of Beyond the Bridge. If today's conversation spoke to you, be sure to subscribe, share it with your team or a friend, and join us next time as we grow together in how we lead and how we worship.